Typically, you will lose the fading capability at least - the digital signal is usually only 2-channel audio (left and right), so there is no way to "fade" unless you do it through your DSP.

I would think that the headunit balance and tone controls would still apply though.

I'm using the optical output on a PAC AmpPro 4 (which connects between my OEM headunit and my aftermarket DSP) and like I said, I do lose the fader - but the AmpPro still lets my OEM head-unit balance and bass/mid/treble controls work.

 

Which modern Kenwood deck has digital outputs ?
That's like the holy grail around here since all the mfg's phased them out a few years ago.
The only units I know about are the chinese Joying Android based HU's that I've been looking at.
Not the easiest thing to research either as you have to dive into the specs to try and find it.

 

I may be wrong about my Kenwood, I’ll have to dig it up and find the model number. But I do know that my clarion has it.
I may have thought about using digital on the Kenwood when I bought some dsp units and seen the digital output.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I may be wrong about my Kenwood, I’ll have to dig it up and find the model number. But I do know that my clarion has it.
I may have thought about using digital on the Kenwood when I bought some dsp units and seen the digital output.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im 99% positive there isn’t any newer kenwoods with Optical out. I have an excelon 9905s and it doesn’t and was the top of the line a few years back.

 

Kenwood hasn't had a digital output for many many many years.

A toslink spdif is typically 2 channels out. The DVD Alpine units would transmit encoded multichannel output. You would need a DSP capable of decoding that. Which was pretty much limited to an Alpine DSP.

The Clarion I'm quite sure doesn't allow use of the audio settings while the digital output is active.

If you're using the digital out. You're going to send it to a DSP. That's where you will tune your system. Some Alpine head units would allow you to change the EQ and such from the head unit.

Either way. What the hell do you want a fader for? Which sound settings do you think you're going to want to change from the head unit? If your system is tuned properly. You shouldn't need to readjust them.

 

you will not be able to use Tone controls/balance/fader when using toss/link/coax out from your HU,..... BUT you can do all those things with DSP. Use your HU just like a transport.

 

One other thing to remember about most head units that have digital outputs is that they only send the CD signal via the Toslink digital output.

Your AM/FM Tuner and AUX inputs are usually only available over the Analog RCA outputs on the head unit. That may not be a concern for you, just a heads up.

This is how most of the "old school" head units & DSP combos such as the Sony ES CDX-C910 & CDX-C90 and XDP-210EQ/4000X DSP units functioned, as well as the Alpine units that used an AI-net control cable (the AM/FM Tuner signal was sent via analog over the AI-net cable to the Alpine processors).

Interestingly, Alpine's "AI-net" cable and Sony's "Uni-Link" control cables which connected the head unit to the DSP or add-on CD changers are the same (IIRC). These cables relay the serial "control data" such as master volume, bass, treble, balance, etcetera from the head unit to the matching DSP.

The Sony XDP DSP units have a pair of separate analog RCA "Tuner" inputs to accommodate the AM/FM tuner signal from the head unit. The Alpine got the AM/FM tuner signal from the head unit through the AI-net control cable.

The Pioneer Premier DEX-P9/DEQ-P9 and "ODR" systems were the only old school head unit and DSP systems that I have used that also send AM/FM tuner signals (and even analog AUX inputs via their AUX-input adapter modules) via the Digital cable to the DSP. The Pioneer units use a proprietary cable and not a standard Toslink.

 

The modern Clarion double din head units with a toslink output sends all audio sources through the toslink. The volume on the head unit is also functional. I auditioned a Clarion double din with my Alpine F1 DSP for a few weeks and it worked quite well.

The old school head units are typically fixed volume. The data connection (Ai-Net etc) does typically send the volume information. This will maximize the bitrate and is the best possible connection. However, I'm sure the Clarion's variable toslink is just fine.

 

The modern Clarion double din head units with a toslink output sends all audio sources through the toslink. The volume on the head unit is also functional. I auditioned a Clarion double din with my Alpine F1 DSP for a few weeks and it worked quite well.

The old school head units are typically fixed volume. The data connection (Ai-Net etc) does typically send the volume information. This will maximize the bitrate and is the best possible connection. However, I'm sure the Clarion's variable toslink is just fine.

Yeah, that's why my first sentence stated, "One other thing to remember about most head units that have digital outputs is that they only send the CD signal via the Toslink digital output". And I was specifically talking about "old school" head units as well.

I tried the Clarion NX706 on my test bench for a week. Sound Quality was fine, but I couldn't get over the look of the Fisher-Price GUI and the functionality limitations, in addition to the loud cooling fan on the back of the HU that ran almost constantly and it was still in open air on my test bench, not buried in a dash.

And if I'm going to worry about the AM/FM Tuner and other sources being sent over the Toslink, well, I would want it to have a digital HD AM/FM Tuner, which the the Clarion did not.

I can't comment on any of Clarion's other DD head units, but I would imagine they have a similar GUI.

 

And just for those not in the kn ow, as far as I know the only modern head unit still available with SPDIF digital outputs are the Joying units. I just ordered one today we'll see how it works out. I plan to audition it against my Pioneer P99 feeding analog into the DSP.

 

please for the sake of the lord see if the joying actually works along with USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO app,
we already know it actually allows for tidal to work directly inside of it without the need of an external device.

what we need to know now is if UAPP actually operates? if so this means it can override the internal DAC= upto 32bit/384hz vs the limited android dac at 16bit/48hz and also means clean untouched signal directly into the DSP.


to top that today most of the new generation Joying units also come with USB OTG ,USB OUT meaning if you have a Helix dsp with hec usb it might be possible to get the unit to operate via usb vs toslink which claims are that tere are clocking advantages with hec usb and no jitter issues that are seen vs coax,toslink.


if the joying indeed allows uapp to operate and functions with hec usb It would a much easier,pratical solution to all of us that use DAP,Phones etc via hec usb,hec bt.

we would win back steering wheel controls, have a nice large size high resolution screen,reverse camera, radio for every now and then, freedome to the phone when needed etc.

 

I can try the UAPP on mu Joying. I hoped to attach android compatible CD drive to Joying but that got some kind of Android mounting error, although it worked perfectly on my mobile phone - to great surprise of my colleagues (a mobile phone with CD-drive, really??? )

 

I will look up that app to try and understand more but definitely confused -

"what we need to know now is if UAPP actually operates? if so this means it can override the internal DAC= upto 32bit/384hz vs the limited android dac at 16bit/48hz and also means clean untouched signal directly into the DSP."

You're not suggesting that the Joying runs the digital signal through its own DAC first ? I think what you are saying is that the digital signal is formatted (in the digital domain) to match the capabilities of the internal DAC, but that UAPP maintains the full resolution (assuming the source signal is recorded at a higher resolution) ?

I have seen some discussion on spdif vs the USB OTG signal going into the Helix, but I don't remember there being a definite conclusion. I do vaguely remember a comment from the guy at MCA (MCS ?) about it though (can't remember his name).. Do you have a link to that discussion ? I just bought a new Helix Pro but I haven't purchased the HEC USB module for it, I was planning on going coax. I guess I will go ahead and lay in the USB wire just in case that ends up being the way to go.

I'm a pretty clever guy and good software engineer, but not the most sophisticated on all the new way to do things with apps and phones and devices. I worry if I will be able to get all of this stuff working as there does seem to be a hint of flakiness with a lot of it and support is good but confusing. I just purchased the unit yesterday though and its the latest Android 10 OS etc.

 

I will look up that app to try and understand more but definitely confused -

"what we need to know now is if UAPP actually operates? if so this means it can override the internal DAC= upto 32bit/384hz vs the limited android dac at 16bit/48hz and also means clean untouched signal directly into the DSP."

You're not suggesting that the Joying runs the digital signal through its own DAC first ? I think what you are saying is that the digital signal is formatted (in the digital domain) to match the capabilities of the internal DAC, but that UAPP maintains the full resolution (assuming the source signal is recorded at a higher resolution) ?

I have seen some discussion on spdif vs the USB OTG signal going into the Helix, but I don't remember there being a definite conclusion. I do vaguely remember a comment from the guy at MCA (MCS ?) about it though (can't remember his name).. Do you have a link to that discussion ? I just bought a new Helix Pro but I haven't purchased the HEC USB module for it, I was planning on going coax. I guess I will go ahead and lay in the USB wire just in case that ends up being the way to go.

I'm a pretty clever guy and good software engineer, but not the most sophisticated on all the new way to do things with apps and phones and devices. I worry if I will be able to get all of this stuff working as there does seem to be a hint of flakiness with a lot of it and support is good but confusing. I just purchased the unit yesterday though and its the latest Android 10 OS etc.

Indeed I'am suggesting that in the original format even if it is Coax or fully digital the unit limits its self to regular Android limitations being 16bit/48khz. this is where the Usb Player Pro comes in handy, it allows to override that limitation.

This is what I did to test if really indeed it does make a difference and owners with tidal,helix usb can also check to confirm.

1) play tidal as you regularly would off a android phone digitally with hec usb, while operating open the DCM menu,
check the HELIX EXTERNAL CARD menu and keep it open for access.

2) now choose a song that is from the master library on Tidal that is recorded 96khz/24bit play it and then pause it,keep it paused.

3) on the HELIX EXTERNAL CARD menu choose HIGH SPEED 192khz/32bit and then start playing the song that was paused.


In this case without the use of UAPP the HELIX EXTERNAL CARD menu will ready 192khz/32bit for maybe 2-3 seconds and then automatically downgrade to the source units output (if android as mentioned) of 16bit/48hz (not to the dsp's limit of 96khz/24bit either) which is exactly what is happening with my Helix dsp mini/hec usb combo off of my LG V30 Plus running Tidal


now go back and repeat all this using UAPP and that same menu/box reads 96khz/24bit which not only is my tidals claimed figure on master recordings but also my own dsp's limit too.

I assume in my case this shows that UAPP does technicially make a difference.

 

I bought the UAPP and it installed OK but did not discover Hi-Res DAC inside the Joying. Since I did not have any USB OTG comaptible souncard to try (my helix is also without the USB) therefore I think this did not prove anything. Annoying detail, Joying puts its own "split screen" button exactly over UAPP settings button, therefore it is PITA to access the menus.

 

It is not too hard to make an upgrade to toss link with almost ayny head unit, and the expense is under 20-30 USD

 

How ?
I'd love to add digital output to my P99.
I mean I understand the theory, just grab the digital signal off the board somewhere, but don't have a clue how to go about it.(find it, wire to it, buffer it)

 

My 9 month old top single din model kenwood does not have digital out. It's great for radio (digital and analogue) and CD's I haven't ripped. But if I rip a CD to Flac and play it from my DAP SPDIF into my helix ultra it sounds significantly better than the CD in the player. My next test is head unit vs SPDIF coax vs USB as I have just installed a USB HEC module.

 

what’s the difference in sound? I also tested using my 2tb hard drive with flac files against iPhone hardwired using CarPlay and Deezer hi fidelity and a fiio using digital and the only difference I heard was the digital was louder. Sometimes I think Deezer hifi sounds better than my hard drive but I doubt it.

 

what about some player that have I2S output....that is something that Bewith is based on....I2S from Mirror player direct to processor,.....Im playing for some tome with this and results are great

 

I will try to post some pics of modded Pioneer P99 to toss link/coax

 

So I just installed a new Joying Android head unit and downloaded USB Audio Player Pro.
Its currently playing through the coax digital output to my Helix.
I did a direct A/B test between my Pioneer P99rs playing straight analog into the Helix vs the Joying digital playing an exact copy of the same song on 2 different usb sticks, volume matched. The director switched sources almost simultaneously for the quickest and most direct a/b comparison I've ever been able to do. I honestly didn't think there would be much difference but it was a very noticeable improvement. The pure digital was definitely clearer and lighter and more separated. The analog seemed to have a slight veil over the music. In some ways I could kind of hear why that might be slightly preferable there was a bit of softness to it, but in the end the pure digital signal was quite clearly better. No big surprise I guess but we have often debated whether that extra conversion step matters or not.

But can anyone help me with the following questions - I searched you tube a little bit and the UAPP site and couldn't find anything that just went through the basic operation of the app.

1) How do you reach the settings in UAPP? I've heard people talk about setting "bit perfect" and other settings but I played with it for 30 minutes and I couldn't find any way to access anything but the song library and eq/volume and scan for music stuff.

2) related question, I've seen where UAPP will play through Tidal, but again I could find no way to access Tidal in the app. I paid $7.99 for it so I assume I have all of the features ? I have a Tidal app loaded on the Android although I don't think that would be necessary.

3) I dont' have a USB HEC card for the Helix yet, but I did lay a USB cable to the trunk. Do I need to worry about whether its a USB OTG enabled cable or not ? Its fairly new. I am thinking the OTG concern is only on cables that have a compact connector on one end ? I'd hate to spend $150 on the HEC if I dont' have the right cable. At this time I cannot face tearing the interior apart again (took me 3 months to install this system).

4) Not a question just a note and something I remember reading somewhere else - The joying digital signal even at full Head unit volume is quite a bit lower in volume forcing me to turn all the gains up in the Helix. Does this mean the digital signal even at full H/U volume is not using the full bit range ? Is a full spectrum incoming digital signal always the same volume ? I feel like maybe some bits are getting purloined LOL. Anyway to check incoming volume in the Helix ? Is this jsut a Joying thing ? The MOST/NAV-TV digital input in my truck to me Helix never seemed to be too low.

 

Well ha the internet is just like your therapist. Just by writing out my questions it helped - I found that a Joying "home" icon was over the top of the UAPP settings button. I kept dicking around and found that little home button would move and then I could access the settings including Tidal access.

Thanks for the help ha ha.

 

If you have optical that can give bit perfect I wouldn’t even bother with a usb hec, why put more devices in the chain than is required, it’s very good how uapp works

Tidal is in the selections down the left side as I recall and you have to then log in, you can’t access downloaded content due to digital rights management as tidal is encrypted on the hard drive of the phone storage, the same with quboz, but your tidal library will be there for streaming

or you can disable uapp and use the tidal app but only at 48khz no matter what you throw at it due to the android audio layer...

God knows why android make everyone up sample or down sample all audio to 48khz, it’s such a free operating system, yet they do that... it’s why I love my Apple iPad, bit perfect as long as you leave the volume up at whatever bitrate the stream is originally 👍🏼

 

If you have optical that can give bit perfect I wouldn’t even bother with a usb hec, why put more devices in the chain than is required, it’s very good how uapp works

Last I read coax was the way to go, due I think to the fact that it could handle a higher bit rate. I don't like optical because the connections aren't very secure (and I only laid a coax cable not running another one).

And the idea with moving to HEC USB is that then UAPP can take advantage of the higher res capabilities that it has when paired with the Helix.
Also heard it said from Helix engineers that's the best input method, for one reason because it has an independent clock ?
Anyway I'm just regurgitating what I've read on DIYMA.
Rigth now using the coax my understanding is that UAPP will be limited to normal 44-48kHz even if for instance I'm streaming master or hi res.