What volume level are you perfoming RTA measurements with? And what is the resolution of the RTA (ex: 1/3 octave) and is the mic your using calibrated?

I usually perform measurements at the volume level I listen to while driving.

It seems your performing eq corrections with only your headunit... Most headunit's eq abilities are usually too coarse in order to properly correct all the issues found in a vehicle. There may be peaks in the frequency response that will not be able to be corrected with such coarse adjustments. Which headunit are you using?

 

get rid of that passive crossover and go active. This is the exact problem with going passive, its a random luck of the draw lottery either the passive crossover points work well with your vehicle acoustics or not and most of the times it does not at higher volumes. you need to have the ability to adjust crossover points, slopes and for a cherry on top, the type of crossover. You also have no control of output of tweeter and mid. AKA your ability to blend mid and tweet together to achieve a smooth zero harshness listening experience is completely zero. EQ can only do so much, it cant fix any major core issues that you run into with crossover points and level adjustments.

 

It's a good point, I had been hoping to find an MS8 leading up to this, but had no luck. I already had the component set so I just went with it.

You're right too, I'm sure anything I can do is only just a "good enough" type deal. The head unit only has 14 bands for EQ, and yes, individual control over each speaker is whats is needed too. I guess I'll make do and then try and find an MS8 or figure out a DSP. Then rewire the speakers again

 

I've noticed that sometimes setting the gains too high and have the same effect. Turning it up too loud and it sounds shrill. Turning down the gains might help?

Is it also possible to move the tweeters?

 

It's another thing to try for sure, I'll try tomorrow and see what might help.

There's a few other things I've found while searching
Polarity swapping on one or both tweeters.
Making a small foam damper for the tweeter, might tame a hot one down. Related to that was an "L pad", again to just further control the hot tweeter, further than the - 3db crossover

Another thought would be to set up 2 EQ's that work as good as possible on the head unit, one tamed down for the open road, and one left flatter for any other time.
Good thing is the head unit has EQ switching on the main screen


Edit: And yeah it might be possible to relocate them. I've cut the sail panels up to remove the stock tweeter, so I'd just find some replacements.
There are very large blank spaces on the lower dash, which would hold them slightly off axis. Also closer to the door speaker too.
Bad idea to mount pointing slightly down in the dash?

Current mounting, still off axis a bit

 

What head unit do you have? Does it have a "loudness" feature. Loudness features boost the highs and lows at low volume and tapper off that boost as you increase the volume, they work very well if the gain structure is right. If setup correctly the loudness will be completely off when you reach a normal listening volume in noisier situations, like highway driving. A good tune can help, but due to equal loudness curves, the only way to really balance it at all volumes is to use something like a loudness feature.

 

It's a Pioneer MVH-Z5050BT, and yes it does have a loudness setting. I will try this out tomorrow with the gain tuning, sounds like it could be good.
Is there a good way to find the rolloff point? Or just trial and error, and use the 75% of volume as your open road volume?

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the gain until you've tried out the loudness feature for a while. If your gain is too high then the music will be very loud, but the head unit will not have defeated the loudness boost because the volume knob will be low still.

Turn on loudness and tune the system to sound good at good listening levels that way when you turn the volume down you'll get the boosts that will balance the sound. If you tune with the volume too low then as you increase the volume for enthusiastic listening then the highs will still be fatiguing, so make sure you make your adjustments at a reasonable volume level.

 

As gijoe mentioned, I would give the loudness feature a shot (p.39 of the manual). I'm also curious how you have your system configured. You mentioned you were using the Zapco ST-204D SQ, but are running the components passive and no subwoofer. Is the plan to bridge two channels of the amp for a subwoofer in the future? Or are you bridging the amp currently for the components?

One option you may try if the amp is only for the components, is to use Network mode on the head unit. That should give you some additional control (crossover and level) that you don't currently have. Unfortunately, all of the drivers will still share the same EQ.

 

Yep, I will definitely try tuning with that today, and ensure I'm getting a decent volume level on the head unit for when it rolls off the boost.

It's just the passive set off 2 channels of the amp, way way more power than needed, I think the Bluetooth version of the amp is 170rms x4 @4ohm.
I'd set the gains for about 120rms at 75% of head unit, but that's a bit sensitive for the loudness setting

Like I said, my very initial plan was to use an ms8, run the 4 fronts off the 4 channels, and use the ms8 for rear surround fill.
I've got a Zapco ST 1350 for the subs, not here yet though. No one stocks Zapco here

 

If the loudness setting doesn't solve the problem for you, it might be worth trying Network mode on your head unit. Then you have more control over the crossovers and levels of each driver. Two channels of the ST-204D SQ for the tweeters and two channels for the mids. I'd still put a cap on the tweeters for protection.

As a starting point for the high pass filter, Audiofrog calls the passives a "3rd Order Acoustic" with a crossover frequency of 3.5kHz. I believe the Pioneers only offer 3.15kHz and 4kHz in that range. If you want to start lower at 3.15kHz, I would use 24dB slopes, but 4kHz would be the safer bet.

 

Going for the first few drives though, any time the volume would be turned up, the high ends would become unbearable, damn near painful and you can feel the fatigue creep in. Assumption being that it's a factor of cranking the volume to beat the car and road noise, with the ears being more sensitive to the high ends.

Looking at the picture drivers are too far apart from each other, swap both tweeters polarity if you want to run it passive. It's not optimal but should take care of the unbearable effect you are experiencing. You can also use the deck amp for tweeters if you need more channels with network mode..

 

Yes it's not an ideal setup by far, the tweeters possibly could go into the dash somewhere, but I'll leave it there for now.
I'll think I'll "stage 2" this setup. So I'll finish the sub stuff and deadening currently. Later on hopefully I can get an MS8 or decide on a different dsp, and then that's when I'll look at maybe pods on the doors and moving the tweeters, plus running it all active.
So right now I'll just get something useable and half decent if I can

I'm good for channels for sure

 

There's only two things that cause shrill highs at higher volumes:

1) signal distortion - gains too high, EQ turned up, tweeters crossed too low or unable to take the power they are being sent - anything that can cause higher order harmonics

2) Increased sensitivity to high-ish frequencies at louder volumes. This is a function of our hearing and not something to do with the equipment

If it's 1, start turning down the gain, take harmonic distortion measurements if you can, and possibly adjust the crossover higher (I know you can't do this yet, just putting it out there). If it's 2 (and I think it's 2) use the loudness feature as mentioned.

There's been a lot of "tricks" mentioned in this thread, but they are all trying to do the same thing you can with proper EQ. if you've got it sounding good at lower levels the problem isn't in your tune. Now...if you had a large dip and you're using EQ to boost it (potentially causing scenario 1) some of those tricks might address the physical acoustic problem and allow the EQ to be turned down/off.

If you really can't get it to sound right even with loudness, try cutting more in the 2-4khz range, maybe even a little wider bandwidth but not much. That's where a lot of the shoutyness comes from, and it won't kill the "air" in your tune.

 

Well I am youngish and according to the hearing test I get each year, I haven't begun on any kind of age related rolloff in hearing yet...

I think it must be just the way hearing works, that when things are cranked up high, our ears are far more sensitive to that mid-high and high range sounds, so while the rest of the audio range feels good, the other stuff is cutting through and fatiguing, hence why a muffled and cut down high end is working fine on the highway, but poorly when sitting still.

Loudness option is definitely a thing I'll be trying out to help that.

I've only been operating with EQ cuts so far, so nothing should be getting boosted so far, other than this loudness option I'll try
Fairly sure I've not come anywhere near the rated power for the setup. AF say 100rms is fine for them

 

Read up on equal loudness curves/contours ( fletcher monson). It explains how we perceive frequencies at different SPL, and is the reaon for loudness features. As others have mentioned, using network mode will help a lot too. That head unit isn’t the most feature packed for tuning, but it does have all you need to fix your problem once you learn to use it.

 

Just my OCD kicking in, but for correctness when searching, use "Fletcher-Munson curve".

Great advice given so far.

 

Well resetting the gain to work better with the head unit volume range, and the loudness feature does seem to help quite a lot. There's still clarity when puttering around town, and at a loud volume on the open road, say at 32 out of 40 on the volume dial, it isn't sounding too shrill or sibilant, so it feels like it's doing its job

Definitely has had the most impact so far. I'm still running on massive EQ cuts up mid high to high, but if it sounds good, then that's what matters, not what the dial says.

Swapping to a flat curve at that volume and it absolutely screams my ears off with cymbals and anything bright sounding.
It's a good result there for the mean time, thanks for the info and help guys. Already planning the next move though, so this will just get it working good for the meantime

 

That's at least a step in the right direction.

It looks as if your doors are pretty well sealed up from the factory, except for when the window is all the way down and there may be a decent leaky path to free air through the window sill channel.

And I can't quite tell from the photo that you posted of your door, so what I'm curious about is if the speaker adapters/mounting rings for your GS60 speakers are completely sealed to the door's sheetmetal with no air gaps or holes that would make a path for air interaction between the front and rear of the speaker cone?

Interaction of the 180° out of phase sound waves between the front and rear of the speaker cone could potentially cause a substantial loss of midbass levels as you increase the volume and those lower frequencies cancel each other out exponentially, while the higher frequencies remain unaffected.

A narrow air gap in the door's speaker mounts or between the speaker's mounting flange and the mounting surface can act in this way. At lower listening levels the speakers in the doors will not be creating enough "pressure" or force to allow much interaction between the front and rear waves of the speaker, so it sounds "okay". But as you turn up the volume, the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) increases, and allows more "forced" interaction & cancellation between the front and rear waves, which reduces midbass output while the high frequencies continue to increase.

Or possibly the GS60 mids are simply wired out of phase so that the louder that you play the system, the more the midbass frequencies are cancelling each other out? This will also not always act in a linear fashion in all vehicles due to the unique dimensions and properties of the interior of the vehicle. The shape and distance of certain bounderies and obstacles in the interior space in relation to each of the L & R speaker locations can cause variable peaks and nulls in the FR. The center console, transmission tunnel hump, and unequal L/R corner loading can cause amplitude-dependent nodes, etc.

These are the only things that really make sense to me after hearing your description of the sound you are experiencing at the different levels, plus the fact that you are also having to make massive cuts in the upper midrange and treble frequencies at higher listening levels.

Even when taking into account the Fletcher-Munson "equal loudness" curve, the differential between your low volume and high volume Frequency Response seems too great to be attributed to just the F-M phenomenon.

Confirm that the GS60 mids are wired in-phase, and then play an "in-phase/out-of-phase" test track to confirm. Here is a link to download a simple phase test track:

bbfoto DIYMA Sample Tracks - Stereophile Test CD 2 - Track 02. Bass Guitar & Voice Phase Test

You can also use a standard music track or midbass sine wave and adjust the "balance" on the head unit so that just one side is playing. Your midbass speakers are wired Out-Of-Phase if the midbass is Louder when playing just the Left OR Right speakers, and the midbass output is lower when the balance control is centered and both Left AND Right speakers are playing.

It's probably not the case, but I thought that I'd check to be sure that you have a good, tight seal for the speakers that are mounted in the doors, and that the speakers are wired in-phase.

Just trying to blindly pin the tail on the donkey at this point!

 

Nah, there's heaps of midbass from them, very impressed for just a standard mounting style in a very large door.
The issues with the highs being far too shouty has pretty much been tamed for the meantime, good enough. I'm already looking into changing the setup though, as I can't cover them as is with the factory cover grills. I'm probably going to go with door pods.
The mids are in phase, ran through all that early on. I didn't yet change the tweeter polarity yet, as it's come good enough for now

The issue was getting a good tune sitting still, would be fine until you hit the "loud" level, where the highs start piercing the eardrums. It's a non optimal setup to begin with, and I think a big part of it is just human hearing being far more sensitive with those volume levels and frequencies.


I was quite surprised to see the door layout, the black panel has a big rubber gasket all the way around from the factory, and is 99% sealed off from the door card. There are just a couple of spots to get wires through where I haven't sealed up yet, even so it's very good. Same on both sides and with CLD run through all the panels, very little vibration at all.

The OEM speaker mount was used, which means I pulled the old speaker off it and junked it, then I shaved it down to make a flat surface for the Audiofrog mounting ring. The OEM mount has a rubber type seal onto the door, and then I did the same with some offcuts under the AF speaker mount.
What's missing is a foam ring around the speaker to the door card, but I won't bother, door pods being planned and all that.

 

Next move should definitely getting more amplifier channels and running active, ditching the passive crossover if you want to play loud without it sounding like @ss. Everything else wont even come close to helping anywhere as much as going active and actually having crossover control and individual mid/tweet attenuation.

 

Again, I've got enough amp channels to run active with what's there, so it can be done and I'll definitely look at doing it
I'm going to have to pod the doors as well, which might give some room for mounting the tweeter on the pod too. Easier relocation would be into the lower dash area

 

I would not even bother with any relocation or pods until you've ran active.

 

Well I'm going to pod the doors for fitment reasons, and going active will happen at the same time. Using the head unit to control it all will be the best I can do atm

I posted another thread but had no responses, whether I should locate the tweeter next to the mid on the pod, or bring it onto the dash. The threads I could find seem to suggest on the pod. Most door pod threads were for big midbass though

 

I would use double sided tape and keep the things playing while you move it around along with playing with the axis to find out the sweet spot. Then properly run the wire after.

 

While proper placement is always best putting tweeters on the correct axis point seems to have the best effect regardless of where they are mounted. Point source is optimal with passives but if you are going active and eventually getting that dsp you mentioned it will be able to help you over come most placement issues (within reason). Putting tweeters high and wide will help with the sound stage most try to achieve here.