[Paul S.]

Stoopalin thank you for the response, I'm a newbie and there's a lot to learn/know, lol
How should I say this? hmmmm, at these low/moderate volume levels, will the goodness of these Hertz cpk 690 speakers shine?

I read some posters saying certain speakers are made to produce better sound at higher levels, meaning they shine at higher volume levels(more amp/watts needed)? is that "sensativity" where the speaker needs more power to sound good? geez

 

[Stoopalini]

The only way to answer that for your tastes is to hear the speakers. It becomes a personal taste thing at that point.

Wattage is variable. When an amp says “50 watts”, that doesn’t mean it putting out 50 watts all the time. It means it can produce 50 watts without distortion, when the input signal is clean, and within the input specs if the amp.

The sensitivity rating of the speaker tells you how loud it can play at certain wattage, without distortion.

To determine if you like the sound from the speaker at those levels, you just have to listen and see.

 

[BigHead]

The only way to answer that for your tastes is to hear the speakers. It becomes a personal taste thing at that point.

Wattage is variable. When an amp says “50 watts”, that doesn’t mean it putting out 50 watts all the time. It means it can produce 50 watts without distortion, when the input signal is clean, and within the input specs if the amp.

The sensitivity rating of the speaker tells you how loud it can play at certain wattage, without distortion.

To determine if you like the sound from the speaker at those levels, you just have to listen and see.

I believe on the amp Dyno the kicker 200.4 put out 55-57 watts per channel FWIW

Think I'm pretty set on the Hertz 6x9s.

Just hope they will sound good being pushed with only 50w.

Really hope I'm not gonna be wasting my money buying these having never listened to them.

 

[Stoopalini]

They’ll sound fine. The only time you’ll be pushing them with 50w is when you’re listening at 112dB.

For reference, 110dB will start causing damage after 30 mins of sustained listening.

 

[Paul S.]

Stoopalini, Thank you for all the info. Now, I can somewhat put the numbers to approximately what it would sound like.

 

[JCsAudio]

With just 1 watt a speaker with a sensitivity rating of 92 db will output 92 db. For every 3 db more you have to double your power, so 92 + 3 = 95 db and 2 watts.
95 + 3 db more = 98 db and now 4 watts.
98 + 3 db more = 101 db and now 8 watts.
101 + 3 db more = 104 db and now 16 watts.
104 + 3 db more = 107 db and now 32 watts.
107 + 3 db more = 110 db and now you need more than 50 watts at 64 watts required although that kicker may still deliver.

107 + db is very loud though so the Kicker Key should do fine for all but those that need it ear bleeding (and hearing loss) loud. Look for a 6x9 with higher sensitivity and generally you’ll be looking at drivers with a 1” voice coil. The Audiofrog GS690 is very good for your needs. Sound deadening the door properly will make the best use of your available power and reduce distortion. Make sure you seal the driver to the door baffle, and if you can, seal up any door holes on the inner door panel to separate the back sound wave coming from the back of the speaker cone from meeting the front sound wave coming from the front of the cone (180 degrees out of phase) and causing cancellation, and thus wasting power.

 

[BigHead]

Any thoughts on the Infinity Kappa 6x9s?

Would the extra volume I get using 3ohm speakers be worth stressing the amp? Kicker said unofficially it should be fine for the amp.

I reckon the key would be pushing somewhere around 75w @ 3ohm.

I also looked at the audiofrog GS690s. Getting really up there in price after you add the separate tweeters. The Hertz have a larger voice coil than the AudioFrogs (1.2 inch vs 1 inch) and the Hertz also have a higher BL (6.9 vs 5.43 on the frogs)

Can't find any tech specs on the Infinity Kappas. I just really worry about speakers not sounding good when not being driven with full power they are rated for. Is it not a big deal? Does high sensitivity make up for it?

 

[MythosDreamLab]

I would not get all ties up into worrying about 3ohm vs 4 ohm speakers - It has more to do with the Sensitvity @ 1w like was talked about previously.

You're probably overthinking this and getting paralyzed into second guessing yourself or a fear-of-purchase .

Get the better quality speaker! Pushing more power thru a crappier speaker, is NOT going to make you want to want to pump up the volume!

I replaced 2ohm speakers in my Honda with 4ohm speakers and they sounded better!

If you don't go with the Hertz, get the AF 6x9 (component) woofers and pair them with some high-end Hertz Tweeters, like the ML 280.3 Millie Legends...

 

[Paul S.]

I have JL C1's 690 components in the front and 6.5 coaxs in rear doors running off the Kicker 200.4. My digital meter(~25 years old) read the 690 tweeter resistance @ 2.6ohms.
If I were to do it again I would opt for better speakers, but that's me.

 

[MythosDreamLab]

I have JL C1's 690 components running off the Kicker 200.4. My digital meter is ~25 years old and it read my tweeter resistance @ 2.6ohms.

Running Stock Toyota hu, JL C1 690 components up front and the 6.5" Coax in rear doors on the kk 200.4. I'm in this forum because I'm not quite satisfied, lol

Better quality amp & speakers should help satisfy your thirst... !

 

[Stoopalini]

Any thoughts on the Infinity Kappa 6x9s?

Would the extra volume I get using 3ohm speakers be worth stressing the amp? Kicker said unofficially it should be fine for the amp.

I reckon the key would be pushing somewhere around 75w @ 3ohm.

I also looked at the audiofrog GS690s. Getting really up there in price after you add the separate tweeters. The Hertz have a larger voice coil than the AudioFrogs (1.2 inch vs 1 inch) and the Hertz also have a higher BL (6.9 vs 5.43 on the frogs)

Can't find any tech specs on the Infinity Kappas. I just really worry about speakers not sounding good when not being driven with full power they are rated for. Is it not a big deal? Does high sensitivity make up for it?

You're still hung up on the max wattage rating of the speaker and the amp. Unless you plan to listen at levels above 112dB, sending 50w to a speaker with a sensitivity rating of 92dB is all you need.

Amplifiers don't put out a set wattage. The amplify the incoming signal. The RMS wattage rating is a spec which tells you how much they can output before producing unwanted distortion. The RMS wattage rating of the speaker tells you how much power they can handle before the speaker itself starts causing distortion.

These are not "loudness" specs, although they are variables in determining how loud the system will play distortion free.

When your head unit's volume knob is at a moderate level, the RCAs could be putting out under 1v. The amp will then "amplify" this for the speakers. Let's say the amp does a 10x amplification. So if the RCAs are sending 1v, then the amp puts out 10v. 10vac output from an amp, into a 4ohm load, would produce 25 watts of power. With a speaker of 92dB sensitivity, the loudness would be around 105dB. If you turned the head unit's volume down to 0.5v (from the RCAs), now the amp would output 5vac, or about 6.5 watts, which would produce a loudness of around 100dB.

Under most normal listening, you are sending WAY less than 50 watts to a set of 6x9 components with a sensitivity rating of 92dB. There is no concern about them "not being driven with full power" ... as you will most likely never drive them with full power due to not wanting to listen to the system at those levels.

Now if you're wanting to build a system where you can roll the windows down, and play music while you sit by the side of the lake, 20 feet from the car, and still hear it loud and clear ... that's a different story. But if this is a regular driver car, and you just want good sound while you are driving around ... 50 watts into those Hertz speakers will sound great.

If it makes you feel better, I ran my Hertz components (rated at 70 watts) with an old 30wpc PPI amp for a while, and it sounded great! Plenty loud. I did have to turn my head unit up to a higher number to achieve the same loudness I get with my 80wpc Toro amp, but that's not a big deal.

 

[Paul S.]

Stoopalini,
say for an example, the AudioFrog GB15 tweeter's spec sheet says, reccomended minumum RMS Wattage 20w and maximum RMS Wattage 100w

are they saying the recommended amplifier to use with this tweeter is to have ratings between 20-100w? or is it saying we need to "feed" the gb15 a minimum of 20w to attain the tweeter's sweet spot output? what's the output going to sound like if it was fed <15w's?

 

[BigHead]

Stoopalini,
say for an example, the AudioFrog GB15 series speaker the spec sheet says, reccomended minumum RMS Wattage 20w and maximum RMS Wattage 100w

are they saying the recommended amplifier wattage per channel s/b in that range of 20-100w? or is it saying we need to "feed" the gb15 a minimum of 20w to attain the tweeter's sweet spot output? what's the output going to sound like if it was fed <15w's?

Reading this exact type of thing from different manufacturers is what led to my question about possibly "under driving" the speakers I choose. Audiofrog and a few others list a "minimum wattage recommended". I just wanted to make sure 50 watts wouldn't be under the minimum for some of these speakers that are rated for 120-150w RMS.

@Stoopalini

 

[Paul S.]

double post deleted

 

[Stoopalini]

Stoopalini,
say for an example, the AudioFrog GB15 tweeter's spec sheet says, reccomended minumum RMS Wattage 20w and maximum RMS Wattage 100w

are they saying the recommended amplifier wattage per channel s/b in that range of 20-100w? or is it saying we need to "feed" the gb15 a minimum of 20w to attain the tweeter's sweet spot output? what's the output going to sound like if it was fed <15w's?

The min RMS rating is just a recommendation for the smallest amp they would suggest. Remember, amplifiers don't put out constant power, it's variable with loudness.

Even at 20w though, a 92dB sensitivity rated speaker will play around 105dB in loudness. If you had to feed the speaker a minimum of 20w at all times, you would always be listening at 105dB or higher. That's really loud for a minimum level of listening.

 

[Paul S.]

Reading this exact type of thing from different manufacturers is what led to my question about possibly "under driving" the speakers I choose. Audiofrog and a few others list a "minimum wattage recommended". I just wanted to make sure 50 watts wouldn't be under the minimum for some of these speakers that are rated for 120-150w RMS.

@Stoopalini

yeah, that's what we're hung up on, is it safe to say, some are suggesting matching the amp and speaker watt ratings as you'll be using what you pay for in matching specs? If you under amp'd the higher spec'd speaker, you've spent money on a part of the speaker that'll not be used. If you over amp, you've spent money on an amp that'll possibly run the risk of blowing/damaging the speaker, money spent on higher amp power that shouldn't be employed with that lower spec'd speaker.

it seems one needs to demo the speakers to see if it meets the expectations of the user?

Stoopalini, thanks!

 

[Stoopalini]

yeah, that's what we're hung up on

Maybe it will help to think about it this way:

With two 92dB sensitivity speakers, 1w of power will result in a loudness of 95dB (The plus 3dB is a result of adding a second speaker with the same power).

So anytime you are listening to your music at less than 92dB, you are sending the speakers less than 1w (not a typo, one watt) of power.

 

[Paul S.]

you've answered my question for the most part, I should have enough power for my listening levels. As for BigHead, I don't know what levels he be listening to.

What is BigHead's concern of under driving a speaker? loudness, clarity, etc. at his listening levels? Is it safe to say the speaker 120-150watts ratings shouldn't be exceeded or risk damage and that's all it means? You can throw a stock head unit at a speaker with those high ratings or even lower and not get much more out of the system, lol. That 120-150w ratings doesn't tell you how the speaker will sound at any listening level? The question may be how does the given speaker sound at a certain listening level, at what wattage does that speaker hit it's sweet spot? LOL, I'm just going on and on

 

[Stoopalini]

I guess the piece I don't understand is, "the sweet spot" ... what do you mean by this?

The RMS wattage rating does not tell you how the speaker will sound, other than how much power it can handle before it will distort above the tested threshold. Different frequencies also have different responses. I'm explaining things in a very simple way, for the sake of conveying understanding. But it's actually much more complex than this.

For example, the sensitivity rating is usually done with 1 watt power at 1 meter distance. But some shady manufacturers will do this at different power and different distances. You then have to really dig into the fine print. This really only applies to the cheap, low quality, manufacturers. No respectable manufacturer (ie: Hertz, AudioFrog, JL, etc ...) will do this though. Look at some of those really cheap Boss amps as an example ... the RMS and Peak ratings they assign are at such high % distortion, or done with an impractical test signal, that it doesn't translate to real word performance. This is why people dyno amplifiers, to see what heir real performance is.

Note the RMS wattage rating is also done with parameters. Like only one channel driven, or all channels driven .... also what signal was used to derive the distortion, and what % of distortion was it tested at?

For example, Sending a 1kHz test tone, to one channel of a 4 channel amp, and reporting the wattage which caused 10% distortion will result in a MUCH higher wattage rating than sending pink noise, on all channels, and reporting the wattage which caused .01% distortion.

So long as you stick with a quality brand (like Hertz, JL, AudoFrog, etc ...), you really don't need to be concerned with this level of detail though. You can just do the math on the amplifier's RMS wattage rating combined with the speakers sensitivity rating, to determine what loudness you can expect without distortion.

The wattage rating from these manufacturers is the limit you should consider. Although at 120w, on a 92 sensitivity speaker, is around 113dB. Add a second speaker, and it's now 116 dB. And of course, this is in a lab, without reflections (which cause doubling and well as cancellations). So you're real world dB levels can often be higher than this.

Now when you start to talk about subwoofers, things change up too, partly because the human ear percieves low frequencies at a lower volume than mid/high frequencies. It also takes more energy to produce low frequencies. This is why subwoofer speakers have a lower sensitivity rating than mids and tweeters, and also why sub amps need to produce a lot more wattage to balance the overall sound of the system.

Ok, so I think I may be overloading you with info?? LOL ... but I wanted to make the point that the underlying principals in play here are complex. In the end though, 50w provided to a 92 sensitivity speaker, will produce 112dB (assuming the ratings are respectable and valid by the manufacturer). It doesn't matter if the speaker's RMS rating is 50w, or if it 250w ... the loudness at 50w will be the same. The difference between the 50w rated one, and the 250w rated one, would be how much power it can handle, and in turn, how loud it can play without distortion.

 

[Stoopalini]

Oh, and related to the stock head unit comment ... most head units rated at say 50w, actually only produce much, much lower usable wattage before distortion starts. This is why folks use a oscilloscope on the head unit's output to measure the point at which clipping starts on the signal. On OEM head units, and cheaper aftermarket head units, this can start at, or sometimes below, 50% of the volume knob location. So the usable wattage is actually much lower than the specification.

There are head units out there which don't clip (or distort) at all though ... my Pioneer DEH-80PRS is a good example of one. I can turn the head unit's volume up to max, and the signal on the RCA cables never clips. This means my amps can receive the full pre-out voltage as their input, and the amp's gain control can be lowered and still produce the desired wattage.

Which is another point ... that system tuning has a HUGE impact on what you will get out of it.