How was Tru a sub contractor?

Tru were clients

 

Same thing in essence, call it whatever you like. Abyss had a contract with the Korean build house, Tru had a contract with Abyss. Client, subcontractor, whatever.

 

a sub contractor would be this build house that was separate to Abyss...

Whether they employed a separate factory or owned the factory I don't know and doesn't really change anything. They were Abyss designs that were made for both Tru and Abyss.

Many companies don't own factories. Nike sub contracts all their work etc.

 

And again.... Whatever.... A simple error on how I refer to one company is nothing in comparison to the wealth of misinformation in this thread lol

 

This is silly and yet another example of the misunderstanding surrounding things made FOR brands BY third-party factories.

An identical heat sink and similar board layout doesn't make two amps the same any more than the same basket makes two woofers the same.

What if you invented something and sold it to two separate parties and the agreements with both parties made no mention of exclusivity? Let's also say that one brand spent 20 million dollars on advertising, a huge customer support staff, rigorous reliability testing to weed out failures and no-questions-asked replacement of any defective parts. Let's also say that the other brand spent nothing and simply offered the product for sale with no warranty. These are some of the things that contribute to brand value. Because of this, the first company is able to sell the product for $500 and the second company can only manage to sell it for $400.

Are the two products the same? Are the purchases the same? As a consumer selling used gear or as a reseller, is it ethical to sell the second by suggesting that they are?

 

It is not the same as a build house making lots of companies amps. Say Arc, Vibe and whoever else getting the same (or similar amps made), because they are buying a generic designed amp from the factory, and not through the other company like in this case.

It was Abyss' owners design and Tru was ordering the amplifiers through Abyss, not through this build house.

Quality matching also isn't an issue here. Abyss was a quality brand in Asia, it had full support/warranty etc. The same as Tru in America. They were just in different countries.

And to answer a previous question, yes it was Tru that got it taken down: "Your item was removed because of a request we received from TRU Velocity Group, Inc (TRU Technology), a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO), asking us to remove the item for:"

 

Andy, he never suggested they were the same product. He said it was made by a guy who made another product, trying to appeal to the crowd that thinks that amp designers are like artists. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, advertisers do this all the time with the "Brought to you by the makers of XYZ." That doesn't mean "This product is the same as XYZ."

Buzzman, I'm still not convinced that this is a breach of IP. Do you have any links or anything I could read? My sense is that eBay is treating it as a counterfeit case, just because they're ultra sensitive about counterfeiting these days.

 

Mark, I would have to refer you to treatises on trademark law, cases, law review articles, etc. This is not an area of the law that one learns or understands by simply reading a link. As I stated before, the intellectual property rights of a trademark owner are infringed if their mark is used by another party, without permission, for that party’s commercial benefit. In the instance described by the OP, the argument on behalf of TRU would be that the OP is trading on the “goodwill” associated with the TRU mark to facilitate the sale of the OP’s amplifier. TRU didn’t build the amplifier and by all accounts had nothing to do with the amplifier. So why reference TRU? Because by doing so the consumer might draw an inference that this amp is of equal quality with TRU amps. Without putting my whole resume out here, this is the work I do and have done for almost 30 years. I know more than a few things about this subject. The thing about the law is that there are always two or more sides to every position. I stated what I would argue if I represented TRU, and trust me, it’s a winning argument.

As far as your comments regarding advertising that references “brought to you by the makers of XYZ” are concerned, I can’t comment without a more specific example. But, I am confident that in such cases there will have been an agreement in place with the makers of XYZ that permitted the use of their name.

It is not the same as a build house making lots of companies amps. Say Arc, Vibe and whoever else getting the same (or similar amps made), because they are buying a generic designed amp from the factory, and not through the other company like in this case.

It was Abyss' owners design and Tru was ordering the amplifiers through Abyss, not through this build house.

Quality matching also isn't an issue here. Abyss was a quality brand in Asia, it had full support/warranty etc. The same as Tru in America. They were just in different countries.

Unless you were involved in any transactions between Abyss and TRU, it would be to your benefit to qualify what you say with “I think,” or “I heard,” or whatever else shows that what you state as fact is actually just hearsay.

And to answer a previous question, yes it was Tru that got it taken down: "Your item was removed because of a request we received from TRU Velocity Group, Inc (TRU Technology), a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO), asking us to remove the item for:"

More power to TRU. I didn’t get such a notice in my situation with eBay. This is the kind of vigilance that a trademark owner must exercise to protect its rights to its marks. As a consumer you might not like it, but it’s no different than copyright owners cracking down on free music downloads and file sharing. It’s the proper business decision. Note also that TRU is part of an eBay rights owner program. So, eBay clearly wants to minimize its risk in these situations as I noted earlier.

And, a final note, I am out of this silly debate/discussion. I don’t care to spend my time reading hearsay versions of purported business relationships that are not relevant to what should be our priority –sharing ideas on how to improve our systems and enhance our music listening experience.

 

Furthermore, Tru is claiming that any other amps that share a likeness to theirs is a counterfeit, as if Tru originated the designs themselves. To say that Abyss amps were made illegally (counterfeit=illegal), no less, is pretty low.

In order to sell a $2,000 amp, Tru needs to distinguish itself from the pack, and they apparently do this by lying.

 

Abyss - Forums - Mobile Electronics AU
Some story.....

 

No real facts other than the above link?

I have to admit, having read all those things (Tru or false) about those 2 companies, I kinda side with Abyss on that one - don't really understand why Tru is lying about their old relationship with the Korean manufacturer...

Kelvin

 

As I read what you wrote, in my case, in order for it to be ip violation it has to be incorrect and not cast a negative light on them?

The Zelos amplifiers were designed by Mr. Kim. He also says he designed the Tru amplifiers.

For it to be ip violation then Tru have to say that somebody else designed them, which I am not sure they do? (At least I have never seen anywhere, where it says who designed the amplifiers (a part from the John Fairchild edition(s)) and it doesn't say anything on their website as far as I can see.)

Surely this

But, they better be 100% correct about their competitor’s product because they would then be exposing themselves to claims by consumers and governmental agencies under tort law principles such as fraud and misrepresentation, and to claims by the competitor of unfair business competition.

means that if Mr. Kim did infact design them, then there is no problem with me mentioning them in my listing.

I did not mention any negative allegations. Just they were designed by the same person.

 

:snacks:

This is getting good.

 

Agreed.

:smash:
:laugh:

 

senior800 at the end of the day you created your own problem! It is clear you dont care for the tru brand due to your connection with abyss. So why in the world would you even use the tru name as reference in your listing??

 

senior800 at the end of the day you created your own problem!

Tru complaing to ebay about this guys listing, right or wrong, is not this guy creating his own problem.

 

This of some interest to me, as I've actually factored in a bit of Tru technology into my business plan.

TRU Technology: SSLD6 - Line Driver
Car Audio & Security: Car Stereo, Speakers & Subwoofers, Car DVD Players, GPS and CD Changers

Having dealt with various companies who have threatened me with legal action on my fakeheadphones.com site (namely Sennheiser and Monster), it pays to have the facts. In my case of where amazon themselves sold me counterfeits (not a thrid party but it was amazon) I posted pictures, receipts and email correspondents for all to read. I see non of those things here!

example:
Fake CX300 II sold by Amazon.co.uk - Update. - Amazon
Amazon.co.uk - Amazon in name and shame
http://fakeheadphones.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/sold-by-amazoncouk.png - Picture of my receipt

I defend fakeheadphones.com for the second time. - My heated discussion with Sennheiser

It helps to have proof of your discussions. When talking to people on the phone, for my purposes I always ask what I can and cannot put up on my site. In what i determin are minor matters I have put a few phonecalls up on youtube, to get 'Proof' of what I'm saying, or posting.

fakeheadphones.com nicecans.co.uk are selling genuine Sennheiser headphones - YouTube
call to Sennheiser UK - YouTube

As to the original listing, I appreciate that senior800 saw it as a good idea. Unfortunately it has back fired.

Personally, I'm still looking Tru and I simply want to know: .

1) How does there stuff sound?

Who's doing business with who and where and in what country or whether they're lying about where their stuff is made is of no interest to me. I don't care if its being made by a goat farmer in Peru (no disrespect it was the first thing I thought of) is no skin of my nose! I think if we all knew who's in or out of bed with who business wise, our heads would explode.

As to senior800 losing money over what you feel is a lie, it sucks, I know, i've been there. But get me something solid from both Tru and Abyss!

 

I like Tru's product a lot but too bad John Yi is not really the kind of guy you want to deal with. Couple years ago me & John were having a conversation over at Tru's Facility in Socal. Back then I was still living in California(Currently in Indonesia now), and he ask me to take over Indonesian Distribution for Tru. Back then i am quite a fanboy of tru and thinkin it could be a really good Idea to become a dealer. John even ask me to invest in Tru's America since they are thinkin about making install accesories.

So i went back to Indonesia, we email few times regarding the plan etc. Until 1 day i need to get Tru line driver for my install which i am planning to use it for tru's demo car .Since they dont sell the line driver in indonesia so i email john, and just for my comparisson i also contacted one of Diyma's Tru dealer. To my surprise John try to sell me double the price from what the dealer quote me. So I decided to get it from the dealer. Few months later i need to upgrade my Preamp card for my billet amp, so i contacted both John & the dealer i dealt before. So the dealer went to contact John and ask for quotation, John found out that its for me, so he banned the dealer to sell anymore Tru's product to me. Ever since that i lost respect for John, altho i am still in love with Tru's product. How do they expect me become a distributor when they cant even be honest with me, and tryin to sell their products 2x from what their dealer sell to me.

A good friend of mine told me before that he is one of few guys that help John to set up Tru's back then. My friend told me he once help John unloading a batch of shipment of heat sink with abyss label still on it. So to say that tru dont have any relation with abyss thats pretty funny, since a lot of ppl actually know the TRUE story & not the TRU VERSION. Why can't they just admit it and just say that the relation went sour and they went separated way.

 

So the dealer went to contact John and ask for quotation, John found out that its for me, so he banned the dealer to sell anymore Tru's product to me. Ever since that i lost respect for John, altho i am still in love with Tru's product. How do they expect me become a distributor when they cant even be honest with me, and tryin to sell their products 2x from what their dealer sell to me.

If this is true, then John is no different to some people I've spoke with. At the end of the day its bad business, that will end up in tears. Sadly, I know/heard of worse business practices in the world of car audio. As a prospective retailer (me), its all a pain in the a55. But for now, its what i have to put up with decisions and attitudes like this until i get established. Believe me, it won't be forever.

Doesn't mean I won't buy a Tru product though!

 

If they admit the true story, I'm sure nobody wants to buy Tru products at that price anymore....

 

It means no TRU product for me, I never bought any and never fell into the whole "TRU" is the best hype. Now dont get me wrong, if someone offered me a TRU product for free or at a real cheap/steal price then I'll snatch it but not to use it to sell it and make my money back with some profit.

 

Most businesses i know act like thieves given the chance . Unless you have $$$$$$$ to hire the best lawyers etc you will get shafted .

Happened with a rather famous "shoe" company "Jimmy Choo"

What took place there was terrible .

 

Why, what happened with Jimmy?

(not directed at you Renegadesoundwave) Business is business, I don't know what people want from a business. From Nike, to retail outlets and fast food chains that pays 2p per hour above minimum wage just to beat government statistics, business is there to make profit. If it wasn't there would be no business, because people/companies would go bankrupt.
Now, giving my tax money to failing businesses, to support the lifestyle of the undeserving is a different issue, but in the case of Tru, I've seen and heard of worse situations.

I don't care if Bose make speakers out of paper cones, ice cream cones or recycled toilet paper, if it sounds half decent (which out of the 100+ headphones I've owned, now i'm down to about 30 pairs and Bose are still in my collection) and people are happy (which i am with my Bose OE headphones) with their purchase then who cares

In the case of Tru, what deals were done in the past, what arrangements went sour is of little consequence to me when choosing their products. It's informative, however I've still got my sights on a Tru Line driver

Car Audio & Security: Car Stereo, Speakers & Subwoofers, Car DVD Players, GPS and CD Changers

 

Lets just say that certain parties where told to "give up the business or spend a lot of time in hospital if lucky to survive


I hate companies that bully their way around . I never ever shop at Tescos in the UK or Asda . Asda are owned by Walmart and they suck big time

 

wow!! interested hope goes well

 

Dan Fraser designed their Steel series. On Saturdays as a moonlight gig while working for Renkus-Heinz.


http://www.danielle-oc-ca.50megs.com/

 

Dan Fraser designed their Steel series. On Saturdays as a moonlight gig while working for Renkus-Heinz. Oh, and cross dressing on the weekends, but nobody cares about that part...

I don't normally do this to people that have treated me fairly in the past. So here ya go: index

And what's that gotta do with the price of apples?

So, Tru like many companies lied about certain things to make money, and that one of the former designers is now a women. I'm not seeing anything to get shocked or upset about.

 

Uh...wow.

 

Nothing wrong with him being/wanting to be a woman. More power to him/her, this doesnt change her intelligance regarding design of amplifiers.

I for one dont care, heck if she designed another amplifier I wouldn't mind buying/using it.

Or even asking her questions regarding amplifiers.


To be honest I think that a low-blow for envision to do that, since his very professional, it seemed kinda weird reading it from his post.

Anyways there are other amplifier designers that are bi/****/trans/.... whatever you wanna call it, BUT THAT does not change the fact of their knowledge and experience in amplifier designs.


And am not trying to get into and arguement over this, it just seemed to me kinda weird.

 

Yeah, it reads weirdly. I'll change that.

 

Not bothered "whO " designs a amp. if its good its good

But i do have a issue with companies that cheat .For that reason i would advice anyone thinking of buying EBC brakes etc to do some searching about how this company was run and it still has the same owner . For that reason i will never ever buy their products. they made their money cheating the public

 

Hook me up with a link, I can't find anything.

 

Interesting

 

ebc rubbish - Google Search

one of many many pages

They started off importing cheap nasty brakes and having the suppliers etc spray them any colour .these then got sold as been "specific" . The discs lasted days ! the pads ,,,,you might as well have jumped from the car

the owner harks on about how he has changed etc

yet was happy to cheat everyone

They are crap pads anyway .

 

Anything more specific than that? All I read was people's opinions on how they don't like or do like the pads.

 

I would definately want more specifics on ebc. The EBC motocross brake pads are the only things even close on stopping power to the stock honda pads.

 

On the EBC bandwagon-I got some of their "green stuff" pads for my Gti6, after using them I realised the "green stuff" was the cash leaving my pocket for lousey brakes. Bedded them in properly but those ****ers would still BURN after some spirited driving, no more EBC for me!